Is Xilinx slowly dumping Modelsim?
For years, both Xilinx and Altera have provided a free version of Mentor Graphics' Modelsim. This was a nice symbioses, since FPGA customers need a simulator in order to create designs. Xilinx and Altera have always provided EDA tools at a very low cost, and made their money on silicon rather than EDA software. Teams that create large hardware designs would still need an expensive full version of Modelsim, rather than the free version that comes with their FPGA tools.
Recently, however, FPGA vendors are starting to feel that their budget for EDA tool development is increasing too fast. They cannot keep developing high quality EDA tools and sell them at the same low price.
I have noticed that Modelsim Xilinx Edition-III (MXE-III) is only available on Windows, not on Linux. Also, Xilinx ships its own simulator, ISim, packaged with its ISE design suite, while Modelsim comes as a separate download.
It seems like Xilinx makes it easier for their customers to choose ISim. Why would Xilinx have their own simulator? Do they feel their license fees to Mentor Graphics are becoming too large? What is their plan with ISim?
Any opinions or inside information are more than welcome in the comments.
Philippe
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Low ROI
My assumtion is as follows: People are buying Altera DS or Xilinx ISE because they need a synthesis tool and perhaps a simulator for waveform or simple simulations. As you mentioned teams that create larger hardware designs will always be using better tools than the bundled Modelsim edition, and therefore Xilinx are getting very little back from the money they are paying Mentor for Modelsim since they are essentially giving it away for free.
Verification process and FPGA
My experience, from avionics market is clear : It is unthinkable to design a "serious" FPGA with an acceptable level of confidence and efficiency with only free tools from XilinX, Altera or Actel.
From the moment you start some gate level testsuite, some code coverage or any other "up to date" verification methods (including linter or clock domain checking ...) you'll need performances and powerful tools (from Mentor Graphics or others providers).
So, I agree with trondd : free is limited and can't be consider as realistic solution
"Serious" FPGA desings
Hi James,
Thanks for your input. You say that "serious" designs require not-for-free (meaning expensive?) tools. I see where you are coming from, since you work in the avionics sector: you have to follow a very strict quality assurance protocol, which involves (among others) gate level simulations.
It would be interesting to know how big your designs are, not in gates, but in person months or in dollars. Can you give us an order of magnitude of these figures?
My feeling is that the design methodology for large FPGAs closely resembles ASIC design methodology. This includes lots of expensive EDA tools. There is also the opposite site of the spectrum: small and cheap FPGAs for non-critical systems. For these designs, verification is sometimes done entirely on the prototype system, with very limited (if any) simulation.
So there is a definite need for both low-cost (or free) simulators and high performing, highly-priced simulators. The interesting thing is that Xilinx seems to be pushing Mentor out of the low-cost/free market. Then again, Mentor probably does not even care.
Commenting on the posts that
Commenting on the posts that differentiate entry-level simulation from more advanced verification, as product manager for Cadence digital simulation I will say that's exactly what we see at Cadence. We have several large customers that implement in FPGA but use our simulators, VIP, and management tools for bigger and/or mission-critical designs.
An example of one such user is here: http://www.cadence.com/Community/blogs/fv/archive/2010/04/29/harris-cade...
=Adam Sherer, Cadence Verification Product Management Director
XE doesn't do what they need
To do some of the funkier things with Xilinx's paid-for, but relatively cheap tools (eg. Sysgen co-sim with Modelsim, SmartModel sims) requires a high-end Modelsim license (not XE, and not even PE).
So to use Sysgen (only a couple of K$) with cosim, you need to spend 10K$(?) on a high-end Modelsim license which you may not want for anything else.
Xilinx need to make those sort of sims cheap enough compared to the money you already spent with them.
hope they're reading this
Hi Martin, good point. I hope they are reading this.
Philippe
Not sure they need to :)
Re-reading my post, it wasn't too clear... When I wrote:
I meant :
They already know it :)
Or did I misunderstand your meaning Philippe?
Martin
I misunderstood
Hi Martin, I did misunderstand you. I apologize.
Do these "funky" features (Sysgen) work with their current ISim release?
Philippe
No problem...
I should've written more clearly in the first place :)
As to whether it works at the moment, to be honest I am not sure... with 12.x Smartmodels of hard blocks are supported. I seem to recall 12 supporting system generator as well, but I haven't had opportunity to try it yet.
Cheers,
Martin
You were right
Just announced on the FPGA newsgroup:
http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/customer_notices/xcn10028.pdf
Regards,
Hans.
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